Tuesday, March 10, 2015
Discussion Post from Jesse
Stuck Rubber Baby pg. 1- 103.
So far our readings have been insightful, wonderful, similiar, and yet also completely different. One of the common threads throughout our readings so far have been that of discrimination and acceptance. Maus has been a benchmark for me personally in which I have compared many of the other readings. Vladek's characters has been one that has stuck with me so far through the class. Stuck Rubber Baby promises to have a similar effect on me by the end of the story. Howard Cruse's character Toland Polk is one of the best written characters that I have come across in a long time, and as an avid reader this is some accomplishment. Watching him grow throughout the process of the story so far has been rough at times, but completely filled with emotion. The asides where Toland speaks directly to the audience is what first draws a comparison to Maus. Art speaks similarly to the audience at certain times through out the series. Do you think that Cruse's increased focus on breaking the fourth wall works better, or do you think that Spiegelman's use of the fourth wall to create increased emphasis works better? The perspective of the racial tensions in the South from a closeted gay man is a particularly strong emotional story. Does reading a story about racial discrimination aimed at African American's make you think worse of Vladek's prejudices? Looking at Shortcomings do you see the similarities between Ben and Toland, what about between Alice and Sammy Noone? The pacing of this story can be erratic at times, and quite a bit frustrating. Do you prefer American Born Chinese faster pace to Stuck Rubber Baby's slower more intricate story? One of the more interesting comparisons that I have made so far is the similarities between the Monkey King and Toland. Both tried to become something that they are not. The Monkey King went to great lengths to join the immortals, and even tried to forsake his monkey heritage and subjects to become human. Toland tries the same thing through out the story. He looks at playboy's and holds to a regime of only pleasuring himself to the images of females for 3 years, though he doesn't restrain himself in wet dreams. Toland tries to become straight through being with various women, and forces himself to try and fall completely in love with Ginger. I do believe that Toland loves Ginger, but the type of love that he is truly looking for. I know I have asked a lot of question but feel free to pick and choose what you want to answer, and be sure to talk about what you think of the story so far.
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I think some of the comparisons you’ve made between Stuck Rubber Baby and the other comics we’ve read are really interesting. I do see a similarity between Cruse and Spiegelman’s using the present to break up the recollections they are telling, but I don’t think one is necessarily better than the other. And they both seem to be trying to accomplish different things. While Spiegelman used the present to show his father telling him the story and to explore their relationship, Cruse seems to be giving us a glimpse into how much his life has changed since the events of the comic book (although I’m not sure since I haven’t finished reading it yet). As to whether this story make me think worse of Vladek’s prejudices - no, I don’t think I feel any differently. Since I liked the character Vladek in many ways and admired his endurance, I can see that allowances / excuses can be made on his behalf … but in the end discrimination is highly illogical and ridiculous to me and that’s how I felt while reading Maus. Now that you mention it, I definitely see a parallel between Ben / Toland and Alice / Sammy - I think this is a great comparison. Both Ben and Toland are sort of jaded characters, and both have close friends who are a little freer in their behavior and more accepting of themselves, and also a little irreverent.
ReplyDeleteOverall, I’m enjoying reading Stuck Rubber Baby so far, although there are a couple of elements that I think make it a more difficult read than something like American Born Chinese. The realistic drawings are well done in my opinion, but difficult for me to get used to since the longer comic books we’ve read so far have had much more abstracted characters. Also, I agree that the pacing gets a little erratic or goes slowly at times. And the events of the comic book are really scary and upsetting so it’s by no means an easy read.
ReplyDelete1. But for Spiegelman, his questions directed for the audience were more tied into the process of him writing the work. I think for the two to be compared it would have had to be a situation where Vladek addressed the audience about certain thought processes he had, and why he chose certain actions. This he did do to Art, I suppose, because he was recounting his tale. And analogously, Toland addresses his partner as he recounts his decisions and thought processes. I think this is useful as a technique when we’re talking about coming of age. It allows the writer a sort of tool to clear up things that would have otherwise been left to the interpretation of the reader—possibly to the detriment of the character. For example, this aspect is absent in Shortcomings and with it perhaps we’d have greater sympathy.
2. I addressed this in my last post, but I suppose I think of Toland’s involvement in the civil rights movement is kind of passive and motivated out of self-interest (e.g. to become closer to Ginger.) Once Ginger is out of the picture he largely stops participating, after all.
We can draw an analogy to the cop that is a frequent flyer at the gay bar who still acts violently toward Sam even though we as readers see the clear analogy between the treatment of the black population and the gay population. Vladek still is almost blindly prejudiced toward the friendly black man in the book even after he lived through genocide! I think it points to something kind of disturbingly present across human culture—maybe a desire to other what we do not understand, what makes us uncomfortable. Maybe it’s about power and entitlement. Very problematic, but very present.
3. I think the difference you may see in the pacing has to do with the span of time that each book is trying to cover. In American Born Chinese, we do see him as a very young child, and then as old as a high school student. In Stuck Rubber Baby, you’ll recall that Toland doesn’t remember times as well, so it’s like a span of years that he correlates together thematically, hence why it may feel a little jumpy. I actually think that narratively this feels more natural. I resisted the heavy hand of ABC with pacing because I felt like it was really pushing me to a very specific conclusion—and did when the narratives collided. I think that SRB feels a little more organic, but it’s also designed to be kind of inspired by memory.
Cruse's breaking of the fourth wall just reminds me that Toland has gone through all of this terrible stuff he showing and lived to tell the tale. We know he is apparently happy and free (in terms of sexuality) in the future and that the story is being told with a measure of retrospect. In that way its more of a memoir than a coming of age narrative. Spiegelman uses the fourth wall differently, I don't think their methods can be compared. Spiegelman seems more focused on showing how the holocaust has affected him and his parents. Cruse is not really showing how Toland was affected by what he went through, just that it ended happily.
ReplyDeleteVladek's prejudices were really not stemmed from the same root as the racism of the South. Not that he wasn't being racist, but the South has a much more deep seeded and complicated history of racism that this book is focusing on. If Vladek wasn't so stubborn and old, Art and his wife would have been able to correct his ignorance more easily. The ignorance depicted in Stuck Rubber Baby is much more intense.
There are definitely parallels between Toland and the characters in American Born Chinese. Although Toland has something less visible than race that he is ashamed about, he still goes through the same stages. The scene where he checks off that he has homosexual tendencies really reminds me of the scene where the Monkey King is thrown out of the party of the gods. And I see more parallels between Sammy Noone and Wei Chen, people who are not ashamed and sort of sense the problem with Jin/Toland but don't overtly help.
I love Stuck Rubber Baby so far but it is so hard to read because of the style! This has Maus beat for wordiness and dense black and white art that is really a struggle for my eyes. It takes less than half the time to read 100 pages of American Born Chinese than it took to read 100 pages of this. Sometimes I wondered why Cruse hadn't just written a book since this was so wordy, but then I saw that this unit for our class is called "Making Race Visible" and I sort of understood better the advantages of drawing a racial book rather than writing one.
Stuck Rubber Baby
ReplyDeleteI really like the way that Toland speaks to the audience. He’s speaking to th reader from a future period where he is happy and has accepted himself for who he is on the inside. The story is set in a time that brought so many complications and these periods could of left Toland in any position, but he obviously was left in the best. I love the way the story is framed using the break of the fourth wall. It keeps the story contained, but somewhat opens the character up which loses its surprise. Without the fourth wall break, Toland’s story would have been consistently surprising as to where his life was headed. Maus does a better job at breaking the fourth wall. It consistently moves in and out of the stories that his father is telling. The story feels more set in the future than in the past while Stuck Rubber Baby seems more set in the past than the future.
I look at Vladek very differently compared to this story. He was completely wrong to be so prejudiced. What he had been through in the Holocaust seemed to have made him more likely to judge instead of less. Stuck Rubber Baby opens u discrimination in the south more than a lot of stories that I have read. This story delves closely into the happenings there and it gave such an interesting look. I see that Ben and Toland are very similar. They both seem to be pulled into places that they would never go themselves. They judge others with contempt and seem to be out of place wherever they go. Alice and Sammy share similarities in where they want to go in their lives. They seem to be more outgoing and adventurous compared to their significant others. They each just seem like they don’t belong with the people they ended up with. I really like the pace of Stuck Rubber Baby. It’s a more slower of a story to read, but there is a lot of information to process and this information is important in understand Toland and his situation. I really loved the pace of American Born Chinese because it was quick and fun and never lagged on for long because it didn’t need to.
I definitely saw Toland’s similarities to the monkey king. He was lost and wanted something that he was not. He was scared to be gay. Toland was able to see how the other side lived, but even when it seemed okay, he never broke his desire to be straight and in love with a woman. It sort of stresses me out seeing him this way. He’s going down a path that he probably will never be truly happy in. Knowing he ultimately chooses to be himself really helps in my understanding of the situation.
Honestly I love both Maus and Stuck Rubber Baby so it's hard to pick which had a more effective fourth wall break, but I'd have to pick SRB just for the fact that we keep reading to hear how this all adds up to the current time when Toland has a beard so we can see the conclusion to why we are being told these things. In Maus it's just an element to help Art speak directly to his audience. Though both work well, I think SRB works better since it was more crucial to the story.
ReplyDeleteI think I did prefer ABC's pacing over SRB's pacing just because I think it better utilized the medium to get the same message across by using words when most effective and images when most effective. A common rule in making comics is to show and not to tell. SRB loves to tell. LOVES it. We get whole scenes where we are just listening to a conversation play out about some events somewhere else. The whole story is a telling anyway. Which is fine, but ABC did better utilize image and text integration which can make SRB look like a very wordy and intimidating read.
I definitely see your comparison with Toland and the Monkey King and agree they are very similar! Interesting find there. Though I do enjoy finding comparisons like these in the readings as well as these discussions, I can't help but feel like we aren't discussing the medium as much as the content. Image and text integration is huge in all these works and is what is helping them be as successful as they are. If I were to try and teach someone about television and all we watched was the food channel, they wouldn't really know much about television, but they could probably make a really good grilled cheese afterward. My point is I think we should look past content a bit and more at how this medium is allowing these stories to be successful. Nothing against anyone, just an observation.
What an ending to this story. All I can think about is how sad the situations were for gays and blacks back in those times. And I know the struggle is still real to this day. But thankfully we have more accepting people now a days. But my mouth DROPPED when Orely admitted to Toland that he was responsible for Sammy’s death. Even with Orely new attire and personality these years later, it still didn’t give me reason to want to forgive him.
ReplyDeleteWhen comparing the format of the story, I agree it was sporadic. I had to think about what the original plot was and how it relates to the current side story. Even though it was an interesting way to tell backstories. I liked the format of American Born Chinese better. It was larger chunks and always had the same formats so you knew what was coming when you started a new story.
I do enjoy how Toland would talk to the audience and direct his comments to us the reader. There are some benefits with this. We get to hear Toland’s present thought process and reflections on the past in a direct way.
Overall, I feel like Stuck Rubber Baby was as emotionally gripping for me as Maus was. The personal struggles that Toland and his friends went through were heart breaking. But it was a good read and I’m glad we got to read it.
ReplyDeleteI honestly didn’t think worse of Vladek’s prejudices because, although there is no excuse for racism it still is understandable to an extent why Vladek was prejudice. It is unfortunate that most humans relate one horrible experience to all experiences, and base judgments on a race of people from the actions of a few. We see that nowadays with the media, and how it portrays certain people and then links it to a whole religion. I honestly preferred American Born Chinese to this book. I liked the pace and the direction of American Born Chinese more than Stuck Rubber Baby. I felt this was a bit more complex than the majority of the books we’ve read so far. I liked your comparison between the Monkey King and Toland, you are absolutely right, they both did struggle to be something they weren’t which in turn failed and made them be who they really are.
1. I find that Cruse as well as Spiegelman use their narrative approaches to great effect. Framing the stories as a reflection on the past allows for a more meaningful understanding of the events, and the impact that they had on the characters in the present. With pieces of history such as the Holocaust or the Civil Rights Movement of the 1960s, I think that recognizing it as part of history makes it more approachable, acknowledging its relevance in today’s age and making it a little easier to think about. As far as which book’s structure works better, this may be more a reflection of my own tastes than anything, but I must admit a preference for Maus’ narrative stylings. Spiegelman handles his subject with a much more postmodern sensibility, recognizing his work as a graphic novel memoir. He’s openly self-aware of what he’s engaging in with his work, which I find provides a certain amount of authenticity to his work, rather than the straightforward narrative reflection that structures Stuck Rubber Baby. But again, this is my own take on things. Other readers may not have as large a soft spot for postmodernism than me (in truth they would be hard-pressed to).
ReplyDelete2. I have never been what you’d call a big fan of Vladek’s racist moments in Maus. I think they are an important part of our understanding of him as a character, and I think the scene is valuable for our understanding of the long term impact of the Holocaust. That said, I do not relish the experience of Vladek complaining about how black people only steal things, and Stuck Rubber Baby has done little to ameliorate or exacerbate the situation. I feel that, although the two phenomena are similar and highly deplorable, the contexts in which we see them are far too different to put them in a similar light. Vladek’s outburst is indicative of how much the Holocaust has warped his understanding of people and the world, and is meant to show that although he is truly human in his character and identity, he is not a martyr. Meanwhile, the events and goings on we are shown in Stuck Rubber Baby reflect a larger, more pernicious issue of prejudice. The violence of Cruse’s work is born from years of institutionalized xenophobia and hostility, and presents an entirely different (and much more troubling) circumstance. It’s comparing racist apples to homophobic oranges.
3. No.
(What do you think of the book?) All things considered, I think Stuck Rubber Baby is a good graphic novel. This decision was reached after going through a substantial amount of reflection and ambivalence, and it is not without its caveats. This may be a matter of personal opinion, but I cannot help but voice my distaste for the art style. It is over-detailed, frequently to the point of revulsion, and makes it very hard for me to feel comfortable with the characters. With so much of the book’s thematic content having to do with love, physical interaction and attraction, I feel like Cruse really shot himself in the foot by picking an art style that has such an alienating realism. I can understand how it might fit with the topics of racism and prejudice, but even then its grotesqueness ultimately proves to be distracting. As for the writing, Toland’s voice and transformation come through very clearly, and this is one of the work’s strong suits. But many other characters come off as unlikable and shrill, with Sammy in particular seeming not so much proud of his homosexual identity, more smug. Again, I was glad to read Stuck Rubber Baby; not many books, let alone graphic novels, cover the topic of LGBT rights in the South during the 60s. But this leaves me with the question, “Can a book’s topic alone justify its existence?”